March 14, 2024
Parenting Pandemonium, Postpartum Pressure & Sisterhood Shenanigans
Is busy … always better? Christina Smalley - licensed family therapist, who specializes in perinatal mental health - joins us as our first guest. This episode is filled with honest dialogue about the standards we hold ourselves to as women and mothers, and how negatively they impact our own mental health. Jenny & Raebecca get deep (and transparent) with the mental blocks they face.
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Hosted by @raebecca.miller and @jennyfromthe843
00:08 - Parenting and Mental Health Chat
09:05 - The Struggle of Working Moms
12:30 - Breaking the Cycle of Conditioning
21:38 - Understanding Anger and Self-Acceptance
34:28 - Unhinged Fun Moments With Friends
WEBVTT
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Alright, we're back, Episode 9 and our first guest ever.
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So we have Christina Smalley with us today.
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I'll give you a formal introduction in two seconds, but this is the informal version.
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Christina, I have known for 17 years.
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Wow, she is married to my little big brother and she is really amazing.
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So we've talked about you a few times in past episodes.
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Like I've referenced different things you said to me in like funny little conversations.
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But now we have you on air.
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You're this is not a hostage situation, but I hope you have as much fun as we're about to have with you.
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I just like how fitting it is that, like our first guest is a therapist.
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Oh.
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I think that really speaks volumes to who we are as people and fully willing to like participate in this may happen, yes.
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So thank you for being here.
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It's the growth.
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I like it.
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Okay, so let's do a check-in really quick.
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How is everyone?
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How's your week?
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Week is good it is rainy here, the power is out, and so that's fun.
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I've had to relocate recording studios today and then my husband's out of town and like I feel like normally and I'm good.
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The dogs are the issue.
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They, you know, we've got Tani and he is still a baby, so he wakes me up at four and five o'clock in the morning because he's like hungry and I'm like go back to bed and I don't function well with like limited sleep.
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So I'm like a bear.
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So if I like bite your head off, just know that it's because I'm not sleeping.
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I'm not sleeping well either.
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Well, I mean normally, when I'm totally feeling no stress.
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I sleep amazing, so I don't know why I can't take the last time I had no stress, I'm kidding.
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Like maybe five, I don't know.
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I was probably worried about something to you.
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I had some margaritas last night with a friend, so I was kind of hoping that that would give me sleep, but it didn't, and that's why I look so pretty this morning.
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And I also broke a nail, so I'm going to have to go and see Andy, but I just showed the girls this but and maybe I'll post it this is the exact reason why I have to have pointy nails.
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She was right that the one that's broken looks like a Halloween thumb.
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I think it looks like a toe, a Halloween toe.
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So we're in agreement.
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I need the points.
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You do, and I actually was disagreeing with you about this because I think they're kind of scary looking.
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But no, I agree, I agree.
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Yeah, no, I told you I did.
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This wasn't my original decision.
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Like a person led me to this decision and every time I break one I'm like wow, that's a Halloween toe Gross.
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So sorry, christian, this is just what we do I like it Okay, talk to us.
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How's your week.
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It's Wednesday.
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Yeah, so we're getting back into life.
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Over here we were traveling and then my husband had surgery, so he's home for the next lots of weeks and we're doing it, yeah, so yeah, he's normally not home.
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No, he works, so he's not able to pick up anything heavier than a gallon of milk.
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Oh my gosh, and like we haven't really talked about this.
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But like the man called and then add that, add surgery to that like mentality.
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When Nate had his vasectomy he was like, oh, I had major surgery.
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Like I can't do anything.
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I'm like you got like a vein clipped, like you're fine, like I mean come on, throw some peas on your crotch and let's roll.
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I mean get it together, I know.
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So, god bless, my husband actually had the audacity yesterday to say I'm going crazy, how did you do this?
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When you were home with the kids, I was like my friend.
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I was taking care of babies.
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We should say this Christina has three kids, so Jenny has one, I have two, christina has three, which I think is like such a fun dynamic.
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I don't know why I'm obsessed with this, but like let me tell you about three.
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And so I sent her this meme the other day because obviously I know her kids really well and I love her kids.
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But the meme was like the baby of the family bullies everyone.
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And let me just tell you right now, in that family the baby Elsie Ann is the boss.
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The biggest boss.
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And my brother completely allows it.
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He is wrapped.
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My brother indulges it 100%.
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Other two kids could never get away with the stuff that Elsie Ann gets away with.
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It is bananas.
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I love that, though, like I feel like she's probably going to grow up and be like a girl boss, I love that 100.
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Well, her sister is already a girl boss.
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Oh yeah, yeah, her sister is going to either run a gang or a company.
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She is.
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That girl has more spirit and soul in her than probably anyone I've ever met.
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I mean that kid, the wind blows through her hair when there's no wind around, like she is meant to move mountains.
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I love that.
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Like she's a wild child, you could see this picture from vacation.
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She just was in it to win it.
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She brought her Polaroid camera on vacation and was like mom, we got to take a picture here.
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Mom take a picture of me doing that.
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Mom take a picture of me.
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She's about to turn eight this weekend, oh god.
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Saturday Wow, I had to pre-record her birthday message because I don't have the girls this weekend.
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That's smart.
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That was really smart of you.
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I know, but I was like, oh my gosh, I have to make sure I'm my life together for Rowe because I love Rowe.
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but yes, we're ready for it.
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So let's jump into it.
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Ok, I'm going to say what you do and I'm probably going to butcher it.
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So Christina is a child and family therapist, but she specializes in perinatal mental health.
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What is that?
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Yeah, so obviously the child and family therapist kind of speaks for itself.
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So I work with families and their little ones, but I actually specialize in perinatal mental health, which means I work with families during their reproductive kind of years.
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So from preconception through parenthood talking about mental health, mood disorders, transition to parenthood, all the things that come along with infertility and birth trauma.
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So the gamut.
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I had no idea what that was perinatal.
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Yeah, it's a newer term.
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I think there's a lot more information now and we're talking a lot more about this transition into parenthood, and I don't want to say postpartum depression specifically, but just all the type of things that come along with postpartum.
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We are hearing a lot more about postpartum depression and anxiety, but it's being talked a lot more about now.
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And also, not everyone has postpartum depression, but everyone that has a child goes through a transition.
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That's like understatement of the century yeah no, I know, I just definitely got this.
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Even when you said birth trauma, my heart just sunk.
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First of all, let me say this In general I'm so glad that we're talking about these things in a different way than we used to and a bigger way, because I just think, even if it's things like my divorce, I talk about it a little bit more because I feel like nobody does and it becomes this really secretive thing, and I think that's so true for moms and motherhood or terms like birth trauma.
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That's kind of how we got to reaching out to you and asking you to be here, like Jenny and I were talking last week and she had a day that I think everyone can relate to, but and you don't mind me sharing, I'm assuming- no, not at all, but there are just days sometimes when you're a mom and I don't know if this is specific to moms or specific to working moms.
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I don't know what it's like to be a mom and not a working mom, so I can't speak to that but there are just some days where you wake up and it has nothing to do with your calendar, but you just cannot shake this sense of just like whether it's like fear or dread or anxiety, and you know for sure that the next day is gonna be a better day, because those hard days don't happen all the time.
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But it is awful.
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It really is and I don't feel like I'm like that, just like I mean, when I was texting you back I was just it's just more of like I am fine 92% of the time, like I am on lock, I can work as many jobs as I need to, I can do all the PTO things I can grocery and wife and all the things.
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But then there are days when I'm just like I'm about to effing break, and that was my day last week and it was like I was super quiet and then you were like what?
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You read into it, even via text message, which is crazy, and you were like what's wrong?
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I'm like I am just like about to lose it today.
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An and I don't know like.
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It's not really an anger thing for me, it's just more of like don't talk to me, I'm super over stimulated, like I cannot handle one more thing.
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One, if you're like One, if you're like the anger stimulation thing is real, like I don't even think that I realized what that was until I had kids and then I was like everything is too loud, everybody is touching me, everybody is talking to me, the lights are too bright, right, and that just sends you into a whole nother world, like it's fight or flight.
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It's a fight or flight and then there's that like thing that people you hear people say, but like if you're a working mom, you have to work like you don't have kids, but then you have to be a mom like you don't work.
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And so that's the extra pole where I'm just like I like had these phone calls where they feel really important, then I've got little people who are really important, and then I've got the vegetables and the air fryer is going and like I love the air fryer.
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But there are days where that little hum is like the final thing that's going to break me, because my ears just like and I don't know if I just because I have like retail ears, and so I'm like attuned to listening to every single conversation, but like I'm like I just need to go lay face down on my bed and like panic.
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Well, I think, christine, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was we talk about postpartum depression.
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But do we talk about like postpartum anxiety I have had ever since I got pregnant, and like I was not an anxious person before, but like I feel like as soon as I had my daughter I am convinced that I'm going to die.
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Like it's everywhere I go, like it's like every trip, every flight, every carnival ride.
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It's like this is it for me, like final destination?
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Yes, log through the window.
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Like this is my demise.
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And I actually have talked to several of my girlfriends about this and they are the same way.
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So I would love some context about why that is.
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I think number one, anxiety, is talked about less than depression, because anxiety is more normalized, right.
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So like when someone, when you're telling someone all the things that you're doing, they're praising you, how many times have you said I'm doing all of these things and someone's like you're amazing, you are killing it.
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You are right, it's normalizing are too much Right.
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You're just being told that all the things that you're doing Good job, do more.
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Oh my God, oh my gosh.
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Right, but that's what we've been taught is when.
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I'm not ready to let that go.
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I whoa because.
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And then we're conditioned is that because we're also conditioned as women, to like, love this, like you're such a good girl?
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Yes, like you.
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So then it's like, compounded by this whole way, that we're like brought up about like this is why we have no chill.
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Right.
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So why we're afraid to sit down and like take a second, and you're right, it's completely normalized by this.
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Oh, it's almost like, validated by like oh, you're doing such a good job.
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Yes, yes.
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Oh, my God.
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Because in busyness has been something that's also been awarded.
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Right.
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So our culture is like the busier you are, the better you are, but really busyness is a trauma response.
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Right so we do that to avoid feeling, because if I stopped doing something I have to sit with myself.
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Oh shoot.
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And it's so true.
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No, I'm panicking right now.
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I'm like I'm wetting a little bit, yeah, I need more deodorant.
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Rebecca would say deodorant activated.
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Deodorant activated 100%.
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But that's so true because, like I am not a feelings person, like I get which is, as soon as you said the word, like I broke out in the sweat, so like that's so dead on, because I either go from like I'm either like foot to the gas, stressed all the things to either cocktailed which is what I was going to kind of bring up because I feel like one leads to the other, right, oh for sure, or I'm sleeping, so like I'm not allowing like any of that thought, like the feeling stuff, because I'm like, uh, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
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I'm good Sleeping, though, because sometimes I'm just like no still and I'm supposed to be sleeping, but I'm just like I'm just enjoying the void, but I'm definitely barely sleeping.
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Well, mine's like a hamster on a whale on my brain, so there's nothing relaxing about it, yeah.
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Yeah, so that's a good time too.
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That's so interesting, kirsten, like, that is like, and I feel like so many people can relate Works.
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So what do you equals better?
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So what do you do besides to medicaid with wine, and can we talk about that?
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Other substances?
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The, the medicating.
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Well, the the sort of like this mom culture, wine thing, like obviously like I participate yeah.
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Well, again, this is normalized, right.
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Like we have the cups to say, like this is my, this is mommy's other coffee, or like, right, and I'm not judging, because, like, I enjoy myself some wine.
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But but there is a slippery slope right Between I'm drinking socially, I'm drinking to have fun, and I'm drinking because I've had a bad day and I need to numbness feeling, or I don't want to feel any of my feelings.
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Oof, what if you treat it more like a piece of chocolate?
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Cause, like when I pour a glass of wine, I don't necessarily like think to myself, like I, I will say this.
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I don't think to myself like, oh, I've earned it and I'm going to just put myself out there because I don't care.
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And I really want these conversations to like cross the lines of like where people are already thinking about these things.
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So I think about this a lot but I do sort of feel like I earned it.
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And if it were just food, I would be very sensitive to saying I earned it, because I would never let my kids say that they need to earn a meal or they need to earn food and I don't participate in that conversation mentally with myself anymore and I don't work out to earn my food Like I'm so insanely careful about this earning and like food.
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But when I pour wine at the end of the night, I do feel like I kind of earned it.
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So why did you have to earn it?
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I don't know.
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I also feel like I will tell you this, because you called me out on it probably like a year ago I have to earn like any sort of downtime, like I will literally vacuum my entire house, clean every toilet, do all of the sheets.
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I will go until the end of the day and lose any downtime I could have had because I thought I needed to do those things to earn it.
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Yeah, so I only have the safety of not earning when it comes to food.
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Which one has been a journey.
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Yes, so I did actually pay the price on that one.
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I definitely had to pay my dues to learn how to not have to earn fuel, and that was a whole journey in and of itself.
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But I don't.
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I haven't done enough work.
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I don't think to figure out how to like it goes back to that.
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Busy equals better.
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Like I don't know how to get my downtime.
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I feel like I have to earn it.
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You have to earn it Right.
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Like you are not worthy unless you're productive, you're not worthy at all.
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Yes, and you made me aware of it.
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So I do actually know now when I'm doing it.
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That's the start.
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I did not know, so now I'm going to be like keenly aware of it.
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It's a real thing.
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And I'm not saying I'm perfect because like on a weekend, like I didn't sit down all last weekend until I sat down two fold clothes, and my husband's like leave the clothes, come, just hang out.
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Like I'm home all week, I'll call, I'll hold them.
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I was like no, no, I'll just get them done real quick.
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And he's like just leave it.
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And I was like I'm not going to do that and I was like, right, right, I can.
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Right, like it's a really funny because I'm actually the same way.
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Like my husband could care less.
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I mean I'm not going to say he could care less, but like he cares Not.
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I mean he does not, it does not bother him if I'm like need to sit down and watch a show, but like before he gets home from work every day I like make sure the house is picked up.
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Uh huh, it's like, and he truly could care less.
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But like it's so bizarre that like I feel like I have to do that and even with him being out of town this week, it's been so nice.
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He's like oh, do you miss me?
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And I'm like I do miss you, but like I don't miss feeling like I need to be up and about, like doing stuff.
00:18:33.934 --> 00:18:38.797
Like after my daughter goes to bed, I'm like I can sit my butt on the couch and watch.
00:18:38.797 --> 00:18:45.266
Love is blind and nobody's here, making me feel like I need to be doing something, even though he doesn't care.
00:18:45.266 --> 00:18:52.942
It's so self driven and like just some kind of like thing that I feel like this angst, that I feel like I need to be doing it.
00:18:53.644 --> 00:18:57.224
Yeah, it's the production piece, Like the.
00:18:57.224 --> 00:18:58.494
We always have to be productive.
00:18:58.494 --> 00:19:07.694
We have to, like you said, like burn our relaxation, which is so annoying because I have not met many men.
00:19:07.694 --> 00:19:13.663
There have been some, but I have not met many men who feel like they have to earn their relaxation time.
00:19:13.663 --> 00:19:14.845
I was like why?
00:19:14.865 --> 00:19:15.654
are we like this?
00:19:15.654 --> 00:19:16.928
Why are we like this?
00:19:16.928 --> 00:19:17.615
We're conditioned.
00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:30.015
It is so, like, how do we overcome that, like these years of conditioning, like obviously wine is not healthy and so I don't think, maybe a moderation, but not long term.
00:19:30.015 --> 00:19:31.903
So like what do we do?
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:39.086
I mean, I think the conversations are a starting point right, Like I don't know if our mothers had these conversations.
00:19:39.086 --> 00:19:53.494
So, talking about it, the one thing that I mean I'm in therapy myself, so like I'm not above needing my own person, but, like you know, being able to feel our feelings right.
00:19:53.494 --> 00:19:55.332
When I'm angry, I'm allowed to feel angry.
00:19:55.332 --> 00:19:57.295
When I'm sad, I get to feel sad.
00:19:57.295 --> 00:20:13.255
When I'm lonely, I get to feel lonely, and I don't have to push that away with housework, with wine, with eating, with exercising, with scrolling on my phone, because all of those things are just things that we do to numb and to not feel.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:15.885
Can I unpack something really quick?
00:20:15.885 --> 00:20:20.593
So my therapist said that anger is a secondary emotion.
00:20:20.593 --> 00:20:21.214
Yeah, can you walk us?
00:20:21.214 --> 00:20:23.569
Because this was actually a turning point for me.
00:20:23.569 --> 00:20:33.535
First of all, I this is going to sound really wild, but Christina can explain this better I actually have a very hard time getting angry.
00:20:33.535 --> 00:20:37.575
I get irritated, but I actually really have a hard time getting angry.
00:20:37.575 --> 00:20:44.000
It's just not innately who I am and I do in some ways probably like just disassociate with my family, disassociate from it in general.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:51.388
Um, but because you actually told me once that I need to get in touch with my anger, I told you that.
00:20:53.276 --> 00:21:00.307
I was like I really it's just not who I am and so, and it scares me, probably because, like other people's, anger has scared me in the past.
00:21:00.307 --> 00:21:03.703
So maybe that's like, maybe we're just unpacking this right now.
00:21:03.703 --> 00:21:09.676
It's like I feel like a baby, just like slipped out, but like um, I don't know what it is about.
00:21:09.676 --> 00:21:16.385
Anger that like freaks me out but I just can't do it, like I can't, I never can call people names and I can never say mean things like that.
00:21:16.385 --> 00:21:23.876
I just I don't have it in me and I'm imagining that that is just because I've been in situations where that felt really scary.
00:21:23.876 --> 00:21:37.943
But um, and I'm not like, by the way, this is not a conversation about my divorce, this is just the generalize like in my life I have been in situations where this felt scary to me and so I just avoid that kind of level of conflict.
00:21:37.943 --> 00:21:40.181
But what does it mean?
00:21:40.181 --> 00:21:42.186
That anger is like a secondary emotion.
00:21:43.439 --> 00:21:52.353
So, typically speaking and this isn't true for everyone but anger is an easier emotion to portray and to feel than to feel what's underneath.
00:21:52.353 --> 00:21:53.095
Right, it's like an iceberg.
00:21:53.095 --> 00:21:55.785
So what you see at the tip of the iceberg is anger.
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